Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis doesn’t want to talk about what he knows about the New England Patriots’ practice of taping its opponents’ signals while Weis was the Patriots’ offensive coordinator.
But one person who seems to think Weis should talk is Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young, who’s now an ESPN analyst. Young appeared on Dan Patrick’s radio show today, and he said he’s re-assessing his thoughts about Weis.
“I remember thinking to myself during some of the runs, ‘Charlie Weis is a genius,’” Young said. “I mean, I remember saying that to people: ‘This guy is uncanny, how he’s able to make these adjustments and just come out and dominate in the second half.’ What it’s left me to do is, well, I don’t know. Did it matter? I could see how it could matter if you put it all together. So it’s a tough one. I think that people earn it on the field, and I think you’ve got to move on and move forward and just recognize that it’s not a good thing at the time.”
When Patrick asked Young how big an advantage it would be to know what play the defense was about to run, Young answered, “The game would be over. If I knew what was coming, that’s the whole game.”
Young acknowledged that NFL teams always try to get an edge over their opponents, but he seemed to think the systematic way the Patriots collected tapes of opponents crossed a line.
“There’s gamesmanship all the time. In a game, you take whatever advantage you can get,” Young said.
Because of the kid-gloves treatment that Notre Dame’s program gets as the only school with its own TV network, Weis probably won’t have to answer a barrage of questions about Spygate. But the questions are out there.
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May 19th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Henry Plainview says:
May 19th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
and the Celtics are 25-5 against the West, they aren’t worried about them.
yeah, i’m pretty sure they better be worried about them because this is the PLAYOFFS
in the PLAYOFFS…playoffs? they celtics lost 3 out of 4 to the atlanta-freakin-hawks and lebron james. i just say lebron james because that’s all there is. ray allen is nowhere to bee seen. kevin garnett defers in the 4th quarter. pierce can’t always do it all. he’s their only gamer
detroit will be boston and the lakers will dominate either of them. kobe is clutch and doesn’t choke. can’t say the same about garnett and ray allen
since 98-99, the west has won 7 out of 9 times. you can count 08 as a west year
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May 19th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
Henry,
Let’s not confuse information with media. True, the tapes were gone, but as BB said, they were only a small part of the story. Once the ill-gotten information was combined with the other, legit, info gathered, it lives on. It will become dated over time, but after 1-2 seasons it probably still has value. After all, that is the time frame initially contemplated.
Even if the tapes contributed a small incremental advantage, that advantage would compound over time and in combination with other information. Gathering years of incrementally better information is the point.
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May 19th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
As to prohibited locations. All accessible locations are prohibited. So the only places one tape from are places one can’t reach? Re-read the rule. All taping is prohibited.
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May 19th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
And bradtor777, let me just add this as well. For a while, when Brian Billick started playing the same games with the injured players that Belichick has played for years, I was in agreement with that approach. In fact, it seemed to me that Billick was a little slow on the uptake to “get with the program”. However, after a while, it got on my nerves. And then, after Belichick got nailed for cheating, it all came crashing down. I used to have the most respect for Belichick and the Pats and the Pats fans of any team other than my own. But after the chit hit the fan, and I saw all the excuses being made to try to cover for the Pats, it turned my stomach. I still think the Pats are among the best in the NFL, and I think the coaching is good WITHOUT the cheating. But the cheating is like pouring ink into water; it stains everything. And the stain just never comes out.
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May 19th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Nothing wrong whatsoever with what Young said. A quality QB who knows what’s coming can have his way with the defense.
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May 19th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Trikee,
what part of “stealing signals is legal” aren’t you getting? they were punished for filming from a prohibited location, not stealing signals. what they had on film is no different than what anyone in the crowd could see. you haters act like they had some unseen power that gave them all the answers LOL.
The Dolphins bought tape and audio from the league, no different than what the Pats record, yet the Pats got in trouble? The league has to make money somehow.
The Jets taped the Pats the year before the Pats taped them, so yeah, it’s a fair question ask. why do the Pats get bashed but the Jets are swept under the rug.
The Celtics lost on the road, not at home, and guess what, they have home court throughout.
You want to talk about cheating, talk about the NBA.
The Giants won the SB for 2 reasons:
1.) No holding call on Eli’s miracle throw.
2.) Samuel dropped a sure int.
The Giants are ranked out of the top 5 power rankings for a reason, yeah they’re SB champs but no one respects them as the best.
The Pats are the best, 18-1 > 13-6 + #1 in power ranking despite spygate.
Pats had no tapes to study, the collection was destroyed….it would be nice to think they had everything memorized.
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May 19th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
It be so sure they get blowed out easy if no cheatin.
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May 19th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
The Pats fans need to admit the reality of the cheating and stop acting like the fact that Walsh didn’t have a tape of the Rams walk through somehow means that the Pats didn’t cheat. They did, and they admit that they did. They got caught. They were punished.
The cheating was for videotaping opposing teams’ signals for use in future games (they said they did not use the tapes for in-game benefits and there is no evidence that they did). But the Pats fans who keep saying “but this whole thing is nonsense because it would be legal to tape from the stands” are wrong. The rule is as follows:
“Use at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which a club is a participant, of communication or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic device that might aid a team during the playing of a game.”
“A game” means any game, including future games. Does not matter where the taping occurred, it was against the rules. (The fact that other rules talk about the sidelines, etc. does not mean that it was OK under this rule to tape from the stands.) Goodell confirmed this. Belichick argued that he thought this rule meant that you can’t tape if you want to use the tape for in-game help. Goodell said no, that interpretation is wrong, this rule means you can’t tape for the benefit of future games either. The issue was NOT where the Pats taped, it was that they taped.
Thought that might clear things up for some; or not.
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May 19th, 2008 at 10:24 pm
mr plainview,
ok, have fun with your semantics. they were taping signals, compiling a huge ass vault-database of signals, studying them, and using that knowledge for future contest. ok, but they weren’t “stealing signals” in the same game. i got it. you and belicheat are working the same loophole.
i know all teams cheat. but the patriots took it to another level and when, as florio said, “The Patriots cheated, for years.
The Pats continued to cheat even after they knew that the league was onto them.”, that’s what seperated them from all the other cheaters.
i agree that the pats are a great team, so you don’t have to
quote any records or compare them to the giants to me. they got greedy and cheated better than anyone had ever did. they didn’t take responsibility when the league started to notice, now they are forever tainted because of their arrogance.
make sure you find me on here when the celtics lose. you can tell me “in your face” if they don’t. i am very sure they don’t have what it takes to win a championship
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May 19th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
mikemboston says:
May 19th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Buddy, please be better prepared when coming to a site like this, your quote above shows how much you really know about this:
here’s a short list for you:
The 72 undefeated Dolphins were docked a 1st round pick for illegally grabbing their coach Don Shula (they were champs that year for people not understanding the theme)
—————————————————————-
Dude, you need to be better prepared. The ‘72 Dolphins did not get ‘docked’ a 1st round pick for grabbing Don Shula. Here is the quote straight from Wekipedia:
“After the 1969 season, Joe Robbie, owner of the Miami Dolphins, signed Shula to a contract to become Miami’s second head coach. As a result of Shula’s signing the team was charged with tampering by the NFL, which forced the Dolphins to give their first round pick to the Colts. The decision was controversial because Shula and Robbie’s negotiations and signing were conducted before and after the official NFL/AFL merger, respectively. Had the negotiations been concluded before the merger, while the NFL and AFL were rivals, the NFL’s anti-tampering rules could not have been applied.”
I am so tired of morons like you commenting on how the Dolphins lost a pick due to tampering. Know the facts. The “tampering” here was something which only became an issue because the negotiations were not complete prior the merger. Otherwise, it was two different leagues, and all bets were off.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:14 am
18-1
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:31 am
Trikee, finally you get it. they were compiling tapes from 2000-2007….those tapes were destroyed last season. the tapes from 2000-2005 were not illegal. the ones that were illegal were 2006-2007 (1 game). Jets filmed them in 2006 illegally. all SB’s are legit.
The Jets cheated after the memo too so where’s the separation? and what are they really cheating about? what do they get from those tapes that no one else gets from film or from the league if they buy it like the Dolphins?
Belichick didn’t invent taping, Johnson said he did it too and the Colts O line coach now is the best in the game….so yeah, other teams do it…the Pats got the blame because Goodell used to be a Jet.
Celtics are winning it all unless the Spurs beat the Lakers.
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May 20th, 2008 at 9:38 am
You spewed:
Dude, you need to be better prepared. The ‘72 Dolphins did not get ‘docked’ a 1st round pick for grabbing Don Shula. Here is the quote straight from Wekipedia:
“After the 1969 season, Joe Robbie, owner of the Miami Dolphins, signed Shula to a contract to become Miami’s second head coach. As a result of Shula’s signing the team was charged with tampering by the NFL, which forced the Dolphins to give their first round pick to the Colts. The decision was controversial because Shula and Robbie’s negotiations and signing were conducted before and after the official NFL/AFL merger, respectively. Had the negotiations been concluded before the merger, while the NFL and AFL were rivals, the NFL’s anti-tampering rules could not have been applied.”
I am so tired of morons like you commenting on how the Dolphins lost a pick due to tampering. Know the facts. The “tampering” here was something which only became an issue because the negotiations were not complete prior the merger. Otherwise, it was two different leagues, and all bets were off.
Are you f’ing serious dude? First off Wiki is a site that any moron like you can edit and rewrite as they see fit. I’m guessing that WIKI is your bible and you take everything as gospel, that’s your first problem. If you’re really going to play a semantics game here what’s the point in having an intelligent conversation? They lost a first round pick because of cheating, there’s no other way to spin in than that, THEY LOST A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!
No one here gives a frogs fat ass about what the language was or how technically it was this or that assuming your source is correct which I’m not doing.
THEY LOST A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!THEY LOST A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!THEY LOST A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!THEY LOST A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!THEY LOST A FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK!!!
Thanks for the laugh though…
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Gotta love the 18 straight games argument. What happened in the most important game? I know the New England coaches and players like to say they went 18-0.
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May 20th, 2008 at 10:26 am
plainview, i think it remains to be seen how much belicheck continued doing what he wasn’t supposed to be doing even after the league made it known they were coming down on this activity.
also, part of why this story wont end fast enough for pats fans is belichek’s arrogance. goodell doesn’t like being lied to. and the last thing that makes a lot of people uncomforatable is destroying the tapes.
i’ll really be surprised if the celtics get passed detroit. i’m not just talking smack. the playoff brand of basketball has exposed some pretty major flaws in the celtics game. i’m a kings fan (hate the lakers). the reason i bring that up is that one of the same reasons the kings didn’t get passed the lakers will plague the celtics and that is peja stojakovic = ray allen. best shooters in the nba regular season, knowhere to be found in the playoffs. these guys wilt under the pressure. you might be right the celtics have a better chance against the lakers than the spurs but i still think it’s the lakers year. next year they get andrew bynum back which will make them regretably scary
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:24 am
“Does any Pat hater here feel that they cheated after the Jets game?”
well, i’m not a pats hater, but i am starting to dislike whiny patriot fans.
i’m sure the patriots/belichick kept some internal database of opponent defensive signs that they continued to use throughout the season. it’s not proof, but you should note that the recordbreaking patriots offense started out unbelieveably hot, but gradually regressed as the season went on.
one could argue this was in part due to the aging of the information in their database.
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May 20th, 2008 at 11:59 am
“trikee says:
mr plainview,
ok, have fun with your semantics. they were taping signals, compiling a huge ass vault-database of signals, studying them, and using that knowledge for future contest. ok, but they weren’t “stealing signals” in the same game. i got it. you and belicheat are working the same loophole.”
trikee, you’ll never move him off the position that what the patriots did wasn’t cheating. in his mind, the patriots were punished harshly and the nfl gave itself a black-eye for no good reason.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
meanguy,
i’m getting that impression. for some reason, i actually like plainview, lol.
but for that reason you mention, i have started calling them “legacy protectors” because that’s what this is about.
if you’re a pats fan, you are naturally biased in your opinion. you are therefore excluded from an objective discussion. and there main ploy is to call you a “hater” to put you in that same biased category. that is the irony of all ironies
if i took the time to really understand all the documented evidence, i could punch holes and out-debate even the stubbornest of all biased fans. i did the same thing with all the barry bonds/giants homers.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
“bern7744 says:
May 19th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
weis,1st year almost undefeated,2nd year,less then 500.you think his opponents figured out to change their signals???”
Dude, Weis has coached Notre Dame for 3 seasons. Seasons 1 & 2 ended in BCS Bowl bids. Season 3…well, us Domers would like to forget last season. He’ll have 2 more to make up for it before the Fire Weis websites gain traction.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
“but for that reason you mention, i have started calling them “legacy protectors” because that’s what this is about.”
that’s a good way to think about it and i guess you can’t really fault them for that. you put your heart into rooting for a team only have them foolishly tarnish it by continuing a practice they had been repeatedly warned about. how can someone so smart in one area be so stupid in other areas? i think bob ryan has belichick pegged with the nixon comparison.
what probably makes it worse is that no one really knows how helpful that information really was. my sense is that it helped quite a bit, but unlike steroids, you can’t quite quantify it.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Mean Guy…
What makes us Pats fans whiny? Is it because we are passionate about our team? Because we are defending our team? You would do the same thing if it was your team.
Yes, The Pats did wrong, got caught and got penalized. Yes as a Pats fan I want this to go away. But as we all know, it will not. It is unfortunate that I cannot view this from the outside.
I can see if The Pats stole their playbook, or did tape a practice, yeah that is flat out cheating. But really we got some defensive signals and that was it. Nothing different that a QB simulation the snap to try and draw the team offsides. I really feel there is a fineline between cheating and breaking the rules. Pats broke the rules and paid for it.
However, my initial assertion that we put up one of the most dominating seasons in history was completed after they were caught. This speaks highly to the theory that the information they got was minimal as they were not blowing out teams prior to last year.
How can you deny that?
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
“it’s not proof, but you should note that the recordbreaking patriots offense started out unbelieveably hot, but gradually regressed as the season went on.”
No it is not proof. If you watched the games, you have seen our Defense kept us in a lot of games late. Check your stats. Brady put up 400 on Pitt in Dec and 356 on the Giants two weeks later. How does this look like a regressing offense?
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:41 pm
“What makes us Pats fans whiny? Is it because we are passionate about our team? Because we are defending our team? You would do the same thing if it was your team.”
well, it’s primarily based on this self-centered persecution complex that patriots fans have. there is no grand conspiracy to get the patriots. the nfl is not composed of patriot fans and patriot haters.
the patriots cheated and got caught. this isn’t an attack on the patriots. it’s a simple statement of fact.
patriots fans are whiny when they:
- claim that the patriots didn’t cheat or that the patriots got caught by a technicality
- claim that knowing what the defensive signals don’t provide any advantage
- claim that the haters are keeping this story alive when it is, in fact, the stonewalling by belichick and goodell’s destruction of the evidence that are keeping the story alive (as a comparison see the different approaches taken by roger clemens and andy pettitte for taking HGH)
- defend what the patriots did with ridiculous arguments like “in a game in 20xx the patriots blah blah blah and only won by x points (or lost by x points) see that proves they didn’t cheat.
- use strawman arguments like “see walsh didn’t have walkthrough tapes” to imply that the patriots were innocent all along
- complain about the coverage this is receiving in the media
- complain about how others are claiming this tarnishes the superbowl wins
- blame everyone else for the controversy when they should be blaming their own team
i empathize with your situation and understand that you are going through a tough time as patriot fans, but suggest than rather than defend your team, you should take your lumps like men and stop acting like children. there is nothing to defend here. the team cheated and they were punished, HOWEVER, until someone comes clean the press and others will keep digging. that is belichick’s fault, not the media.
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“No it is not proof. If you watched the games, you have seen our Defense kept us in a lot of games late. Check your stats. Brady put up 400 on Pitt in Dec and 356 on the Giants two weeks later. How does this look like a regressing offense?”
those look like meaningless numbers to me. i’m basing my assessment on two things 1) my eyes, since i watched many patriots games last year to enjoy their explosive show only to see them stymied more and more effectively as the season wore on and 2) the fact that the patriots played the first half of the season as a record setting offense in footballoutsiders DVOA rating, but by the end of the season had fallen back quite a bit.
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May 20th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
You still have yet to answer this question :
Since the Patriots got caught in the first game of the 2007 season, they went on an 18 game win streak. If the theory that they cheated is correct, they did not have the same advantage they had in previous years and therfore should have lost a few games. Instead they won most of them.
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