Both ‘knowingly’ and ‘a long time’ are debatable.

“Note that end of the rule reads: “…during the playing of _a_ game.” Not during the playing of _the_ game. That means any game, not just the one in progress.”

Your interpretation of the rule is by no means definitive. It seems clear from the wording to me that the rule refers to the game being played at the time of the use of the “communication or information-gathering equipment.”

I appreciate the rational tone of your post but what you’re stating amounts to a great deal of begging the question.

Furthermore, the very fact that the wording of the rule is unclear underscores Belichick’s argument.

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I think it is important for everyone to realize that the Patriots cheated knowingly and for a long time, they have been punished and the league has moved on. The league determine the proper punishment, which I happened to think should have included a 4 game suspension for BB, but they did not think that was appropriate. I feel there was a rush to judgment after the Jets game, but the pressure from Spector (a buffoon, but everyone needs a watchdog) forced them to investigate more thoroughly. That investigation revealed nothing really new (so Goddell claims, though he did not mention the extent of the taping until the probowl) so the punishment did not increase.

For those who claim that the practice was legal before the clarification memo, I ask you to read the rule:

“Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game.”

Note that end of the rule reads: “…during the playing of _a_ game.” Not during the playing of _the_ game. That means any game, not just the one in progress.

Who cares, lets move on and wait for the next Pacman arrest.

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Obviously you don’t watch many games. Yes, Brady whines, before, (especially) during, and many times after a game. You don’t see any quarterback - of ANY team - chasing a ref around the field like pansy Brady does.

And you, my friend of limited intelligence… are just like the normal whiny Pats fan… it’s one of those shift the blame so you look better situations, right? Yeah I know you’re type.

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I never denied what JJ said, I simply refuted your generalization that JJ spoke for the entire league……he didn’t. As i’ve pointed out, Marv Levy (another inlfuential and well connected coach from that same era) is on record saying that he never taped and didn’t know of anyone else who had either. That covers alot of ground. As i’ve said, you Pats fans have not a single strand of evidence that any other team has done what the Patriots did. If it weas anywhere near as prevalent as you guys claim, tapes would popping up all over the place. They’re not. Just stop with the excuses. The Patriots cheated for over 6 years. The whole world knows. Just accept reality and stop trying to justify it. It sucks for you fans but you have nobody to be angry at but the New England Patriots. They did it to themselves and they knew exactly what they were doing the whole time. Stop trying to play the victim.

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Really isn’t much I can add to this statement….I think it shows the TYPICAL vocal Steelers fan and their complete and total lack of intelligence….a shining example actually. I feel for you……really….it’s pathetic in a sad sort of way how. It’s too bad the intelligent people of Pennsylvania (and there are many), let clowns like THIS guy be the spokesman for you all. I especially love the name calling at the end….Brady…a pansy whiny boy??? Are you kidding me? How many games has he missed in his career? Has he EVER whined or complained before, during or after a game? Nope…..now…let’s examine Ben Rothlesberger……no…I better not….I would totally expose you as the fraud you are. Stick to waving your terrible towel….and don’t forget…it can also be used to wipe tears after yet another early playoff exit by the Steelers.

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@stanjam, Thank you for explaining this from a legal perspective. That’s what I took away from the interview as well. He followed the letter of the law to a “T” and the law was poor written. Also, you are right that the Constitution should supersede a memo to change the rule…

It’s really quite stupid, all the NFL had to do is ask, “Why are you doing this? This is illegal from the rule here… BB would say, “Umm, see your Constitution here, it’s clearly legal.” The NFL would come back with, “Hmmm, you’re right, we should change that.” Instead the media got involved, fans went on a witch-hunt to take out a dynasty. Goodell couldn’t simply ignore the crowd and make the logical call. Now he looks bad, very bad.

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If the tape is not used during the same game that was taped it’s not a violation of the rule. Please try to do a little more research before offering up another “fair and logical” argument.

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“In the league’s Constitution & Bylaws, it reads: ‘Any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game.’”

See, the modifier of “might aid a team during the playing of a game” easily applies to the videotaping making it legal under any reasonable interpretation of the rule.

I understand that Goodell’s has ruled otherwise, but just because says the person committed a crime doesn’t make so. You have to look at the act itself and laws that govern the act. When you do, it’s clear that prior to the memo, unless there is some other rule than the one I referenced, it was legal.

The memo did change the rule, there’s no way it was a clarification of what the rule above says…

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First, in order to be binding, the by-laws must be clearly understandable. BB explained the by-law, and it states clearly that the tapes are not to be used during the game. It can be understood to mean that you CAN tape, as long as they are not used during the game. If this went to court, the Pats CLEARLY have a case.

But what about the memo? The memo was sent to bring attention to the policy. It was not, and CAN NOT be a statement of a CHANGE in policy, unless the policy itself is changed. BB stated correctly, that he went back to the NFL constitution, because the constitution trumps the memo. This is indisputable. In a business, if you get a memo that contradicts company policy, you have to follow the company policy, NOT the memo!

So much for BB blatantly lying and cheating. He clearly stated what he interpreted in the rule and why. He made a logical and well thought argument. If the case went to a court of law, his argument would hold water. Indeed, the Pats would probably win, because the policy is poorly written, and is not clearly understandable. It could indeed be interpreted as BB interpreted it. And in cases like this, the courts generally rule in the favor of the employee, NOT the business.

Hate if you want, but BB scored on this interview, and he is absolutely correct…again. This is looking more and more like the NFL trying to take down the Pats than anything else. They really hate that the Pats made a mockery of their vaunted “parity.” Signing Stallworth, Moss, and AD at discounts was the last straw. The Pats were to be punished, no matter what.

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For Pats fans, it’s either “Pats didn’t do anything that no one else is doing vs. Pats haters.”

For everyone else, it’s “Blind ignorant Pats fans vs. people that aren’t buying Belicheck’s bull$hit.”

I’m either a “Pats hater” or a “person that isn’t buying Belicheck’s bull$hit.”

I haven’t decided.

hahahahahahaha

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With all the taping of signals during games, there is no expectation of privacy of those signals. You are broadcasting them into open. That’s why teams go to wristbands, and complex signals. It’s not illegal to try to decipher this publicly available information and use it… even during the game. The Patriots only legally used modern equipment (at least until 2006)… and gained no competitive advantage over what a stenographer could still legally provide under today’s rules.

Think about it when a team legally put a stenographer out there to record the coaches signals.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/sports/football/13nfl.html?fta=y

In its statement, the league said Goodell had determined “the Patriots had violated league rules by videotaping opposing coaches’ defensive signals” THRUOGHOUT BELICHICK’S TENSURE AS COACH.

Stealing signals is legal; yes, that is true. However, it is not legal to tape where the Pats did it from. And the memo that came out in 2006 was to REINFORCE this to the league since so many teams were complaining about the Pats cheating! It wasn’t a “change” in the rules.

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Then why was there such a big deal made about whether or not the Rams walkthrough occurred. If it were “legal” pre-2006, then who would care?

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Also @SpyBoots, I’m not saying that Bill Belichick didn’t have a “buffer” for “plausible deniability.” At the same time, it’s hardly a smoking gun to do something how every other organization (football and American corporation) does it. It’s simply the Salem witch trials all over again to call the Patriots on that.

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Yeh, mob hit men others also have a “Buffer” so they can’t directly finger who Gave the Orders! BCheat made sure he had his Buffer.

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Well, cheating against other teams (including super bowls) hurt and was cripping to THEIR franchises. Now we know what the “halftime adjustments” were all about.

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May 17th, 2008 at 11:13 am
“Why didn’t other teams do the same thing? Because other teams DID do the same thing. Jimmy Johnson admitted to doing it. He said Marty Schottenheimer did it. Matt Walsh said he saw the Jets doing it.”

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Yo dude, take a chill already! You are so worked up you have become delusional!! Do you have any idea when Jimmy Johnson retired from coaching?? After the 2001-2002 season (after Jax kicked the Fins butts 62-7), same time Marino left as well. This was not illegal then. It was OK to do up until the 2006 season, when the memo was sent out.

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Here’s why that argument doesn’t work in law… the information in the other team’s huddle or phone lines is private information. There is no Expectation of Privacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_of_privacy). It can’t be heard by 70,000 fans including TV cameras for viewers at home. If the Patriots bugged phone lines or players, they’d be gaining new information that was completely private. This is like stealing the other team’s play book.

In the case of videotaping signals, it’s taking information that the opposing team is clearly making available to you and recording it. Most teams use an advanced scout, a backup QB, and pen & paper. The Patriots simply used modern technology that made it more convenient - and there was no rule in the books that they couldn’t use the modern technology.

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touché. i suppose i was thinking aloud.

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Any organization of any size similar to the Patriots has this organization chart in place. It’s common sense and something that every other team employs - there is no way that their camera assistants (the ones allowed) directly report to the head coach.

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“geeze, your honor I never thought bugging another teams phone was illegal because it wasn’t in the rules book. I mean during a course of a game teams try to listen to the other teams huddle, so I thought what’s the difference if I bugg the phones lines. I just use it for research and it doesn’t really effect our game plan.

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In other words, this kind of organizational chart of signal theft smells to me like Bill Belichick trying to protect himself.

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I’m sure we’re all giddy with anticipation over that.

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So you have the potential of one season, and zero superbowls to punish at the maximum - and even that is up for debate.

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8 years of cheating and 3 SB’s

a lousy 750k and a draft pick.

Pat’s got off way to easy.

BB should have been suspended for one year. Pats should give one 1st round draft pick to each of the losing SB teams they faced. Pat’s should have paid 8 million dollars total in fines (1 million for every year).

As a football fan I am angry that the NFL left me off the hook so easy. This will not go away until justice is served!!!!

I am starting a website soon and will take this national!!!!!

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For some reason, people don’t want to acknowledge that other teams have been caught and punished for cheating in the past. It hurts their arguments of making the Patriots the most evil organization in sports history.

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Now BB is a cheater and liar.

End of Story.

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Didn’t BB have an affair with a married woman.

What felony did walsh commit? It’s all hersay if you think about it.

The only facts on this case are that BB cheated.

Pats fans need to stop drinking the koolaid.

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What it comes down to is that the league misplaced the modifying phrase of “during the game” in the Constitution and By Laws up to 2006 (and it is implied that it is still so today). It’s easy to see how Belichick’s interpretation at least up into the memo was 100% right and hence could not be construed as illegal in any way, shape, or form. This would mean that the Super Bowls were all legit and untainted. Any complaints in this area should be directed to the NFL for the writing of the rule in an ambiguous way.

After the memo came out, it’s definitely a lot more murky. There’s no way one can interpret the taping to be legal under those guidelines. Belichick did seem to say that the Constitution and By Laws overrides the memo. That to me is an important point. If the US decided to send a memo to everyone’s house that some of our freedoms (like speech) have changed, doesn’t it have to be amended in the Constitution or Bill of Rights? Or is the memo sufficient enough?

I would hope every US citizen would fight for the Constitution being the final word of the law.

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It has been reported many places that the Patriots were building a book on defensive coordinators and their tendencies. Even if they didn’t face a team for another four years, their coordinator could end up going to a team they face every year (like they seem to do with the Colts) or twice a year.

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How do you think the fans of the Dolphins, 49ers, and Broncos would feel about that? I think they’d miss their Super Bowl wins, also.

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You mean when I said that Belichick got caught and punished for it and the fact that other teams cheat doesn’t excuse what he did? At least you are admitting you are being gulible and in denial abiut cheating.

Ok, I will leave the Jimmy Johnson argument out of this since you have looked incredibly foolish from the start on this issue. First, you blasted the Pats fans because you were adament that Johnson never admitted to videotaping signals. Then when you were proven wrong, then you just tried to minimize what he said.

As for evidence of videotaping signals by other teams, Belichick did it for six year without getting caught. He only got caught because his former assistant knew what to look for. Doesn’t that pretty much imply that other teams could have been doing it too and not get caught?

Yes, Walsh wasn’t cheating on his wife, he was committing acts of felony. Last time I checked, only Walsh has been accused of committing an actual crime. Belichick reitterated that in the interview. It is time for Walsh to put up or shut up. If he didn’t audiotape Pioli, he has a slamdunk case defamation case vs. the Pats that could win him millions. Unlike Bob Kraft, there isn’t much of a downside to keep this alive for him through a lawsuit. If Walsh doesn’t sue and if he does something to make money off this incident like write a book, the chances of him being guilty of a felony is pretty high.

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To the other fans of other teams. It is best to let this just go away because if the Patriots take the fall they will take other teams with them. They have proof of other teams taping signals. That is why the other teams over the spring want this to go away. And if it was jsut the Patriots stealing signals why would the NFL start putting radios in helmets of the Defense now? It alot of money to spend to justprotect the whole league from one team

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And the memo was sent to all teams BECAUSE of what the Pats were already doing. Let me state that again for the bullheaded Pats fans.

The Memo Was Sent Because Of The Pats.

So he didn’t think what he was doing was wrong?

Keep feeding that crap to the Pats nation, because the rest of us with intellegence are not buying it.

I don’t think the media and public should ever believe anything BB says for here on.

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Like I told you before, keep your apologistic excuses over at Patsfans.com where “gullible” and “denial” are usually the words of the day. And stop clinging to that feeble Jimmy Johnson argument. I’ve already shot you down on that one. I’ve posted a link to a quote from Marv Levy calling Johnson out multiple times on that bogus comment. Funny how you conveniently ignore it everytime you post about Jimmy Johnson. The FACT is that there is not one single strand of evidence indicating any other team has done what JJ claims. If it was so prevalent there would be tapes poppinup all over the place. LOL.

Funny how just recently Belichick “couldn’t pick Walsh out of a lineup” and now he’s an expert on Walsh’s level of football knowledge amongst other things. Now he’s trying to backtrack all over the place. Truth is Walsh nailed BB to the wall and BB came off like Roger Clemens before Congress. Not only that, he’s completely twisting Walsh’s comments about “strategy and planning” and fabricating others. Walsh never said any of that. LOL. Oh and Billy, it’s obvious you and your staff put quite alot of effort into getting those signals but you claim you didn’t use them? You actually believe the American public is buying that? Please. THREE videographers for tapes you supposedly don’t use? Whatever pal. Oh and credibility? At least Walsh wasn’t out there cheating on his wife with a Giants secretary. Yeah Bill, you’re a real character guy. A cheater both on AND off the field.

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Belichick claims they never used tapes during the game they taped. One of the games the Pats got busted for was a Packers game. Packers are in the NFC, Pats AFC. The next chance the Pats would have to use the tape would be 4 years later. The signals would certainly change in 4 years.

There is no reason for the Pats to tape a Packers game unless they were going to use it during that game.

raidermot

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Marty Schottenheimer stopped coaching two years ago. If Jimmy Johnson is right, who knows if and when Marty stopped the practice of taping defensive signals.

Walsh said he saw the Jets cameraman doing taping the Patriots sidelines. He can’t be 100% sure that he was actually taping defensive signals.

As for ancient history, what consitutes ancient history. Isn’t eight years ago ancient history too?

Live under a rock all you want, but if you don’t think other teams cheated and still probably cheat you are kidding yourself. Head Coaches have million dollars a year jobs on the line with a high turnover rate and the league turning a blind eye on cheating prior to this incident. If they can bend and outright break the rules without any fear of major repercussions, are you going to tell me that all but Belichick went over the line? Of course other teams have cheated probably worse than the Pats.

That doesn’t excuse what the Patriots did. It just states that before people take the moral high ground they better hope the other shoe doesn’t drop and other teams (possibly theirs) aren’t exposed for cheating.

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…or Harrison on HGH

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When did Pats fans say it was ok because everyone does it. Belichick did it. Got caught and paid heavily for it. He got the punishment he deserves.

As I said before it is a long fall from a lot of the Patriots haters moral high horse if Specter gets his way and investigates the league. Other teams have taped signals. That really isn’t in dispute at this point. It doesn’t change that the Pats were caught and found guilty of it, but fans of every other team just has to be concerned that their team wasn’t one of the teams that did it and doesn’t have a disgruntled employee come forward in the future if there is an independent investigation of the NFL.

Ironically, the Pats may be one of the safest teams in an independent investigation because they have had an independent investigation against them for about 8 months now (the media have been desperately digging to find new information) and nothing new has come out other than what they were originally punished for other than being accused of playing an IRed player in practice and players scalping Super Bowl tickets.

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