Comments on: THE “OFFENSIVE SIGNALS” ISSUE GATHERS STEAM http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/ The Best Pro Football Scoop on the Internet Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:02:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: bpenlandjr http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27653 bpenlandjr Sun, 11 May 2008 19:23:31 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27653 Listen, you are all forgetting one other aspect of "taping" - Taping constitutes 2 things - Video (hand signals, etc) and Audio (audibles, etc). The use of AUDIO TAPING AUDIBLES during a game and breaking down those audible while the game is still going by matching what the offensive plays are is a HUGE ADVANTAGE during the course of a game. Do not forget, Miami has always given NE fits and tend to play them better than any other team (even when they are crappy!). Although the commish did punish for video taping DEFENSIVE AND OFFENSIVE signals, did they punish them for taping audibles, etc, if that is indeed what we are talking about. If all we are talking about is the Taping of Offensive Sets (The big white cards with black letters most teams use to call out which personel are needed on the field) then this may have been covered under the original punishment, even if not elaborated on. Listen, you are all forgetting one other aspect of “taping” - Taping constitutes 2 things - Video (hand signals, etc) and Audio (audibles, etc). The use of AUDIO TAPING AUDIBLES during a game and breaking down those audible while the game is still going by matching what the offensive plays are is a HUGE ADVANTAGE during the course of a game. Do not forget, Miami has always given NE fits and tend to play them better than any other team (even when they are crappy!).

Although the commish did punish for video taping DEFENSIVE AND OFFENSIVE signals, did they punish them for taping audibles, etc, if that is indeed what we are talking about. If all we are talking about is the Taping of Offensive Sets (The big white cards with black letters most teams use to call out which personel are needed on the field) then this may have been covered under the original punishment, even if not elaborated on.

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]]> By: NMEagle http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27581 NMEagle Sun, 11 May 2008 15:15:51 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27581 I'm not so sure that O signals being stolen is that important as the QB has the ability to change stuff before the play happens. My conceern is,: Is the NFL being honest? My questioning comes from the immediate destrustion of tapes. What is the NFL trying to cover up is my question. I’m not so sure that O signals being stolen is that important as the QB has the ability to change stuff before the play happens.

My conceern is,: Is the NFL being honest? My questioning comes from the immediate destrustion of tapes. What is the NFL trying to cover up is my question.

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]]> By: PFTiswhatitis http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27558 PFTiswhatitis Sun, 11 May 2008 12:58:34 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27558 Tapes are not illegal. Stealing signals is not illegal. Videotaping FROM THE SIDELINES is illegal. Try to remember that please. Tapes are not illegal. Stealing signals is not illegal. Videotaping FROM THE SIDELINES is illegal. Try to remember that please.

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]]> By: Dont Taze Me Bro http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27525 Dont Taze Me Bro Sun, 11 May 2008 05:47:50 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27525 I didn't say they would have zero, i said they may have zero. We'll never know how much the tapes helped. The Pats had lots of close games not just in the Super Bowl but in the playoffs as well over that time. In 2001, they played the Rams in the regular season and lost, then they beat them by 3 in the Super Bowl. It's not unreasonable to think tapes of the Rams made the difference. In 2003, they only beat the Titans by 3 in the playoffs. They played the Titans in the regular season that year. Maybe tapes of that regular season game provided the 3 point win in the playoffs? In 2004, the Steelers destroyed the Pats in the regular season, then in the playoffs, the Pats seemed much better prepared. They also got a playoff rematch with the Colts. Were the tapes the difference in those games? Maybe, maybe not. It's great how Pats fans say it's no real advantage. You know who thinks taping the games gives the Pats an advantage. Bill Freaking Belichick, that's who. Obviously he thinks it provides an advantage because he sure put a lot of work into it. Even after the league specifically forbid the taping, Belichick still kept doing it, so obviously he feels it is worth not just the time and effort, but the risk of being caught. I didn’t say they would have zero, i said they may have zero. We’ll never know how much the tapes helped. The Pats had lots of close games not just in the Super Bowl but in the playoffs as well over that time.

In 2001, they played the Rams in the regular season and lost, then they beat them by 3 in the Super Bowl. It’s not unreasonable to think tapes of the Rams made the difference.

In 2003, they only beat the Titans by 3 in the playoffs. They played the Titans in the regular season that year. Maybe tapes of that regular season game provided the 3 point win in the playoffs?

In 2004, the Steelers destroyed the Pats in the regular season, then in the playoffs, the Pats seemed much better prepared. They also got a playoff rematch with the Colts. Were the tapes the difference in those games? Maybe, maybe not.

It’s great how Pats fans say it’s no real advantage.

You know who thinks taping the games gives the Pats an advantage. Bill Freaking Belichick, that’s who. Obviously he thinks it provides an advantage because he sure put a lot of work into it. Even after the league specifically forbid the taping, Belichick still kept doing it, so obviously he feels it is worth not just the time and effort, but the risk of being caught.

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]]> By: Rob0769 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27486 Rob0769 Sun, 11 May 2008 02:50:36 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27486 Dont Taze Me Bro, How does beating the Panthers by 3 points have anything to do with Spygate? The only time the Patriots under Belichick played the Panthers, George Seifert was the head coach. In the Super Bowl vs. the Rams, the Pats scored 10 offensive points. They won that game on defense, not offense. They won it by being physical with the WRs and hitting Marshall Faulk on every down whether he was going for the ball or not. Again, how does stealing defensive signals make that much of a difference. Against the Eagles, the Patriots went to a lot of screen passes to neutralize a blitzing defense. That is football 101. Also, stealing signals did not make McNabb look like he was moving in slow motion because he was exhausted or send Todd Pinkston to the lockerroom for an IV for the same reason. People can try to overanalyze this as much as they like, but to say the Pats would have zero Championships without filming is a falicy. For all we know, one or all three of their Super Bowl competitors videotaped the Pats defensive signals in an earlier meeting. It is generally accepted among people who know in the league the Pats weren't the only ones videotaping signals at least prior to the 2006 memo. Dont Taze Me Bro,

How does beating the Panthers by 3 points have anything to do with Spygate? The only time the Patriots under Belichick played the Panthers, George Seifert was the head coach.

In the Super Bowl vs. the Rams, the Pats scored 10 offensive points. They won that game on defense, not offense. They won it by being physical with the WRs and hitting Marshall Faulk on every down whether he was going for the ball or not. Again, how does stealing defensive signals make that much of a difference.

Against the Eagles, the Patriots went to a lot of screen passes to neutralize a blitzing defense. That is football 101. Also, stealing signals did not make McNabb look like he was moving in slow motion because he was exhausted or send Todd Pinkston to the lockerroom for an IV for the same reason.

People can try to overanalyze this as much as they like, but to say the Pats would have zero Championships without filming is a falicy. For all we know, one or all three of their Super Bowl competitors videotaped the Pats defensive signals in an earlier meeting. It is generally accepted among people who know in the league the Pats weren’t the only ones videotaping signals at least prior to the 2006 memo.

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]]> By: Dont Taze Me Bro http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27479 Dont Taze Me Bro Sun, 11 May 2008 02:01:41 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27479 Pats fans love to claim that they don't care about this, that it doesn't tarnish the team's accomplishments. They sure do spend lots of time explaining away something they claim not to care about. You want to know the real reason why this is such a big story? It's because the Pats have so many close victories during the time of their so called dynasty. That's what they're known for, winning close games at the end. That means that the advantage provided by taping other teams may in fact be the difference between the Pats being 3 time champs and the Pats having zero championships. The public knows how slim each Pats Super Bowl victory was, and these tapes could have provided that slim difference. Pats fans love to claim that they don’t care about this, that it doesn’t tarnish the team’s accomplishments. They sure do spend lots of time explaining away something they claim not to care about.

You want to know the real reason why this is such a big story? It’s because the Pats have so many close victories during the time of their so called dynasty. That’s what they’re known for, winning close games at the end.

That means that the advantage provided by taping other teams may in fact be the difference between the Pats being 3 time champs and the Pats having zero championships. The public knows how slim each Pats Super Bowl victory was, and these tapes could have provided that slim difference.

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]]> By: winkel33 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27444 winkel33 Sat, 10 May 2008 22:25:58 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27444 Folks in the press who are disappointed in what Walsh turned over? Shouldn't you at profootballtalk include yourselves in that statement? Folks in the press who are disappointed in what Walsh turned over? Shouldn’t you at profootballtalk include yourselves in that statement?

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]]> By: foyoluv http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27438 foyoluv Sat, 10 May 2008 22:01:40 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27438 Is there any source to find the statistics on radio communication failing? Did it happen more often with Beli-you-know-who's teams than others, or is that just a myth? In 2001, NE lost at Miami 30-10 in week 5, but rebounded to take a close win in NE 20-13 in week 16. If NE taped/learned Miami's signals in the first game, it would be a nice advantage to know ahead of time that the radios would "fail" in the second game. Miami, caught off guard, would be pressed into exclusively using its hand signals, likely not changed very often because of the reliance on radios. Is there any source to find the statistics on radio communication failing? Did it happen more often with Beli-you-know-who’s teams than others, or is that just a myth? In 2001, NE lost at Miami 30-10 in week 5, but rebounded to take a close win in NE 20-13 in week 16. If NE taped/learned Miami’s signals in the first game, it would be a nice advantage to know ahead of time that the radios would “fail” in the second game. Miami, caught off guard, would be pressed into exclusively using its hand signals, likely not changed very often because of the reliance on radios.

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]]> By: espnsux http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27434 espnsux Sat, 10 May 2008 21:55:25 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27434 If Belichick were more forthcoming with the media none of this would be an issue. He is being penalized, along with all of NE for a personality flaw. Where was the media when Saint Tony and Jeff Fisher admittedly(by their own players) conspired to essentially throw a game that significantly impacted the playoffs. Saint Tony let Fisher know that he would not call a timeout therefore the Titans needn't punt and there went any hope for the Cleveland Browns. Integrity of the game-none whatsoever! If Belichick had done this, the media would have opened the door to the elevator of hell and pushed him in! One of the only outlets to even report on this collusion was PFT and even you guys let it ride! If Belichick were more forthcoming with the media none of this would be an issue. He is being penalized, along with all of NE for a personality flaw. Where was the media when Saint Tony and Jeff Fisher admittedly(by their own players) conspired to essentially throw a game that significantly impacted the playoffs. Saint Tony let Fisher know that he would not call a timeout therefore the Titans needn’t punt and there went any hope for the Cleveland Browns. Integrity of the game-none whatsoever! If Belichick had done this, the media would have opened the door to the elevator of hell and pushed him in! One of the only outlets to even report on this collusion was PFT and even you guys let it ride!

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]]> By: mkuske http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27391 mkuske Sat, 10 May 2008 18:59:34 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27391 From my understanding, the Pats' sanction was based in large part on what Belichick told the commissioner. If this current issue is in line with what he told Goodell, then no problem...move on (or move out). However, if this was not something that was initially fessed up to, then I think additional sanction is appropriate. From my understanding, the Pats’ sanction was based in large part on what Belichick told the commissioner. If this current issue is in line with what he told Goodell, then no problem…move on (or move out). However, if this was not something that was initially fessed up to, then I think additional sanction is appropriate.

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]]> By: JoeSixPack http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27389 JoeSixPack Sat, 10 May 2008 18:48:18 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27389 One more relevant matter related to this issue. What if the Dolphins had taped the Patriots offensive signals? Do you think everyone - including the Commisisoner's office - would be as upset? Or do you think there's a double standard at work here? Well you don't have to imagine: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2696227 "...players strongly hinted that the tapes were critical in preparing for the game and provided the Dolphins inside information about New England's offensive audible system. "I've never seen [Brady] so flustered," middle linebacker Zach Thomas said. The league's response? Pretty much a stifled yawn, since there is no rule prohibiting such film study. "Reaction around the league office was, 'That's football,' " AFC spokesman Steve Alic said. One more relevant matter related to this issue.

What if the Dolphins had taped the Patriots offensive signals? Do you think everyone - including the Commisisoner’s office - would be as upset? Or do you think there’s a double standard at work here?

Well you don’t have to imagine: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2696227

“…players strongly hinted that the tapes were critical in preparing for the game and provided the Dolphins inside information about New England’s offensive audible system.

“I’ve never seen [Brady] so flustered,” middle linebacker Zach Thomas said.

The league’s response? Pretty much a stifled yawn, since there is no rule prohibiting such film study.

“Reaction around the league office was, ‘That’s football,’ ” AFC spokesman Steve Alic said.

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]]> By: Jeremiah W http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27387 Jeremiah W Sat, 10 May 2008 18:36:50 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27387 JoeSixPack,"The Patriots were “warned” in 2006 along with everyone else, when the leagued strengthened the rule… and yet they continued this practice in 2002, after being warned in 2006, as evidenced by the latest tapes." They knew it was cheating and a competitive advantage all along. The fact that they were willing to continue after the warning shows either a complette lack of respect for the warning, and or the competitive advantage they got from it was so great it was worth risking. The NFL did not even catch them doing it, the Jets told on them. Then the NFL tried to cover it all up. JoeSixPack,”The Patriots were “warned” in 2006 along with everyone else, when the leagued strengthened the rule… and yet they continued this practice in 2002, after being warned in 2006, as evidenced by the latest tapes.”

They knew it was cheating and a competitive advantage all along. The fact that they were willing to continue after the warning shows either a complette lack of respect for the warning, and or the competitive advantage they got from it was so great it was worth risking.
The NFL did not even catch them doing it, the Jets told on them. Then the NFL tried to cover it all up.

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]]> By: JoeSixPack http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27384 JoeSixPack Sat, 10 May 2008 18:08:00 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27384 Ca_Viking, a Cheerleader, says: "The reason this is gathering steam is the issue of LYING.The Patriots made this problem an everyday policy knowing it was wrong AND even after being warned." So Ca_Viking - let's see if you can figure out on your own what the problem is with your assertion here. The Patriots were "warned" in 2006 along with everyone else, when the leagued strengthened the rule... and yet they continued this practice in 2002, after being warned in 2006, as evidenced by the latest tapes. Belichick's good, but not so good that he had a time machine in 2002 to travel forward to 2006 to learn that the leagued had changed their rrule, only to travel back to 2002 to maliciously violate the 2006 rule. But that's pretty much what some members of the media would like you to believe. Meanwhile, the Patriots and all other teams likely continue to videotape signal calling from the stands today, in accordance with the NFL rule which condones both signal stealing and videotaping of signals, just so long as its in the "right" location and not used for that particular game. Ca_Viking, a Cheerleader, says: “The reason this is gathering steam is the issue of LYING.The Patriots made this problem an everyday policy knowing it was wrong AND even after being warned.”

So Ca_Viking - let’s see if you can figure out on your own what the problem is with your assertion here.

The Patriots were “warned” in 2006 along with everyone else, when the leagued strengthened the rule… and yet they continued this practice in 2002, after being warned in 2006, as evidenced by the latest tapes.

Belichick’s good, but not so good that he had a time machine in 2002 to travel forward to 2006 to learn that the leagued had changed their rrule, only to travel back to 2002 to maliciously violate the 2006 rule.

But that’s pretty much what some members of the media would like you to believe.

Meanwhile, the Patriots and all other teams likely continue to videotape signal calling from the stands today, in accordance with the NFL rule which condones both signal stealing and videotaping of signals, just so long as its in the “right” location and not used for that particular game.

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]]> By: Wrathchild http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27383 Wrathchild Sat, 10 May 2008 18:07:08 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27383 I don't think it's relevant that the Patriots shouldn't have needed to tape offensive signals since the advent of the QB helmet mic. All that is relevant is that they were taping the other team's activities. The rules are clear, no taping the other team, offense, defense, special teams or in the shower...can't do it. I don’t think it’s relevant that the Patriots shouldn’t have needed to tape offensive signals since the advent of the QB helmet mic. All that is relevant is that they were taping the other team’s activities.

The rules are clear, no taping the other team, offense, defense, special teams or in the shower…can’t do it.

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]]> By: JoeSixPack http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27380 JoeSixPack Sat, 10 May 2008 17:56:47 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27380 Videotaping signals was and is legal and condoned by the NFL - even today. Until 2006, only taping for use on that gameday was prohibited. After 2006 it was made clear that any on field taping was prohibited. So if the Patriots or any other team taped signals for later review, pre-2006 from the field, there was nothing wrong with that. Today, the NFL still encourages teams to videotape and steal signals by making clear in their current rule, that it is the LOCATION of the taping that they are most concerned about. They do not want anyone from the team having access to that tape on game day - but only on game day. Read the rules yourselves: Page 105 of the Game Operations manual: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." A memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game." So there you have it straight from the NFL - just like they condone signal stealing (because they know they can't stop it) they also condone videotapings of signals (because they know they can't stop it, unless they review every video that every team takes from the stands). The reported editing of the Patriots video proves it wasn't done on the fly during the game for game day use - it was edited with multiple angles for use later on... i.e., perfectly legal. So before anyone goes and acts "aghast" about videotaping signals, they should read the manual and see that only the location of the taping is regulated by the NFL - not the content, and you can be sure every other team is doing the same thing. Videotaping signals was and is legal and condoned by the NFL - even today.

Until 2006, only taping for use on that gameday was prohibited. After 2006 it was made clear that any on field taping was prohibited. So if the Patriots or any other team taped signals for later review, pre-2006 from the field, there was nothing wrong with that.

Today, the NFL still encourages teams to videotape and steal signals by making clear in their current rule, that it is the LOCATION of the taping that they are most concerned about. They do not want anyone from the team having access to that tape on game day - but only on game day.

Read the rules yourselves:

Page 105 of the Game Operations manual: “No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches’ booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game.” It later says: “All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead.”

A memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: “Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game.”

So there you have it straight from the NFL - just like they condone signal stealing (because they know they can’t stop it) they also condone videotapings of signals (because they know they can’t stop it, unless they review every video that every team takes from the stands).

The reported editing of the Patriots video proves it wasn’t done on the fly during the game for game day use - it was edited with multiple angles for use later on… i.e., perfectly legal.

So before anyone goes and acts “aghast” about videotaping signals, they should read the manual and see that only the location of the taping is regulated by the NFL - not the content, and you can be sure every other team is doing the same thing.

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]]> By: aljack http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27376 aljack Sat, 10 May 2008 17:38:12 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27376 Everyone is saying that the phone systems go dead in Foxboro. The only tape showing offense, the Dolphin game on Oct 7, 2001, was played in Miami. I bet the phones weren't working at all in Foxboro that day. Also, the Patriots played approx 120 games from 2000 thru 2006. There's been 14 tapes. Looks like they put a lot of effort into their video taping. Everyone is saying that the phone systems go dead in Foxboro. The only tape showing offense, the Dolphin game on Oct 7, 2001, was played in Miami. I bet the phones weren’t working at all in Foxboro that day.

Also, the Patriots played approx 120 games from 2000 thru 2006. There’s been 14 tapes. Looks like they put a lot of effort into their video taping.

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]]> By: rasalas http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27374 rasalas Sat, 10 May 2008 17:22:13 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27374 The Palm Beach Post specifically reported on what's involved in "stealing" offensive signals. According to former Dolphins fullback Rob Konrad: "I've never really thought signals from an offensive sideline would be that big of a deal. Most offenses, from a logistical standpoint, are called through the quarterback's helmet, so there really wouldn't be a way to pick up signals. Most of the hand signals from the sideline would be what personnel to use, like two tight ends, a fullback, three wide receivers. The only advantage anyone would gain from those signals is five seconds' more time to be able to call a particular defense." So while not great, there is some small advantage to be gained by studying the hand signals from the sidelines. The biggest advantage is in knowing the signals, even if limited, from a division rival so you can use that few seconds to your advantage during a later game--which is probably why the Dolphins were involved. And the biggest issue here, which seems to be ignored in your post, is that it's cheating. It doesn't matter whether the results are effective or not; it's still cheating. The Palm Beach Post specifically reported on what’s involved in “stealing” offensive signals. According to former Dolphins fullback Rob Konrad:

“I’ve never really thought signals from an offensive sideline would be that big of a deal. Most offenses, from a logistical standpoint, are called through the quarterback’s helmet, so there really wouldn’t be a way to pick up signals. Most of the hand signals from the sideline would be what personnel to use, like two tight ends, a fullback, three wide receivers. The only advantage anyone would gain from those signals is five seconds’ more time to be able to call a particular defense.”

So while not great, there is some small advantage to be gained by studying the hand signals from the sidelines. The biggest advantage is in knowing the signals, even if limited, from a division rival so you can use that few seconds to your advantage during a later game–which is probably why the Dolphins were involved.

And the biggest issue here, which seems to be ignored in your post, is that it’s cheating. It doesn’t matter whether the results are effective or not; it’s still cheating.

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]]> By: Dan1919 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27371 Dan1919 Sat, 10 May 2008 17:15:01 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27371 Mr Florio, Would someone please get the NFL to answer this question: Did the Patriots get punished for taping in the wrong location OR for taping signals. If the taping was only in the wrong location (Which I believe to be true) then how can they be accused of cheating when it would be legal to have the tapes of signals from a different location? Thank you. Dan Mr Florio,

Would someone please get the NFL to answer this question: Did the Patriots get punished for taping in the wrong location OR for taping signals. If the taping was only in the wrong location (Which I believe to be true) then how can they be accused of cheating when it would be legal to have the tapes of signals from a different location?

Thank you.

Dan

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]]> By: bushy http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27369 bushy Sat, 10 May 2008 17:08:04 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27369 People don't want facts. Facts complicate things. That's why we're stuck in Iraq...cuz ignoring facts and rushing to judgment is so much easier. Jimmy Johnson has stated on the record that the Chiefs and Dolphins also taped signals. And the practice was in place when he joined the teams. Which means Don Shula taped signals. And Shula had the balls to question the Patriots record. What a friggen hypocrite. People don’t want facts. Facts complicate things. That’s why we’re stuck in Iraq…cuz ignoring facts and rushing to judgment is so much easier. Jimmy Johnson has stated on the record that the Chiefs and Dolphins also taped signals. And the practice was in place when he joined the teams. Which means Don Shula taped signals. And Shula had the balls to question the Patriots record. What a friggen hypocrite.

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]]> By: Rob0769 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27367 Rob0769 Sat, 10 May 2008 17:02:05 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27367 Ca_Viking, Where was it said that the Pats lied about taping offensive signals? The only thing that has come out about what the Pats said was Greg Aeillo stating that what Walsh turned over was consistent with what the Patriots told Goodell. That implies that the Patriots admitting to taping offensive signals. People need to stop looking for split hairs to try to find scandal. Ca_Viking,

Where was it said that the Pats lied about taping offensive signals? The only thing that has come out about what the Pats said was Greg Aeillo stating that what Walsh turned over was consistent with what the Patriots told Goodell. That implies that the Patriots admitting to taping offensive signals.

People need to stop looking for split hairs to try to find scandal.

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]]> By: Rob0769 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27365 Rob0769 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:58:54 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27365 SRP, The Miami game that Walsh turned over was played in Miami. SRP,

The Miami game that Walsh turned over was played in Miami.

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]]> By: Rob0769 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27364 Rob0769 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:58:00 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27364 TBR05, Read the article Glauber wrote. The league has said that offensive signals are covered by the original punishment. No new rules were broken. TBR05,

Read the article Glauber wrote. The league has said that offensive signals are covered by the original punishment. No new rules were broken.

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]]> By: SRK1 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27362 SRK1 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:54:47 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27362 The fact that they took the time to tape the offensive signals tells me there may be an advantage to gain...This whole thing STINKS and the more it goes on, the more it seems things are being covered up by the NFL AND TARNISHES THE GAME...this whole thing has been mishandled from the begining...Who makes comments and releases statements befor you even talk to the guy. The smells going to get worse way before it gets better. The fact that they took the time to tape the offensive signals tells me there may be an advantage to gain…This whole thing STINKS and the more it goes on, the more it seems things are being covered up by the NFL AND TARNISHES THE GAME…this whole thing has been mishandled from the begining…Who makes comments and releases statements befor you even talk to the guy. The smells going to get worse way before it gets better.

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]]> By: SupaScout http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27361 SupaScout Sat, 10 May 2008 16:52:27 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27361 I dont mind that the Patroits streched the rules to win. One should do everything within ones power to gain an edge in any contest. A little Tsun Zhu can go a long way. If there is grey area in the rules exploit it. I don't want to hear anything about the integrity of the game, there is no integrity left in the NFL. I dont mind that the Patroits streched the rules to win. One should do everything within ones power to gain an edge in any contest. A little Tsun Zhu can go a long way. If there is grey area in the rules exploit it. I don’t want to hear anything about the integrity of the game, there is no integrity left in the NFL.

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]]> By: Battaglia http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27360 Battaglia Sat, 10 May 2008 16:52:21 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27360 The failure of the media to actually explain what the Pats were caught doing allows media and fans who dont know the game to blow this way out of proportion. Jimmy Johnson comes out and admits he taped during his coaching years, which would "taint" the cowboys two superbowl victories, but you dont hear that. You dont hear ESPN explaining what a defensive signal is, and zero explanation on how a team could steal offensive signals. It's the simple joy of building a team up then knocking them. The failure of the media to actually explain what the Pats were caught doing allows media and fans who dont know the game to blow this way out of proportion. Jimmy Johnson comes out and admits he taped during his coaching years, which would “taint” the cowboys two superbowl victories, but you dont hear that. You dont hear ESPN explaining what a defensive signal is, and zero explanation on how a team could steal offensive signals. It’s the simple joy of building a team up then knocking them.

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]]> By: Buff Naked http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27356 Buff Naked Sat, 10 May 2008 16:44:47 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27356 Didn't coaches who played in Gillette Stadium complain about mysteriously losing radio communications? To me stealing offensive signals would be much more useful as they would be much more simple to understand and the odds that a team would change its offensive signals throughout the season would be slim to none. Didn’t coaches who played in Gillette Stadium complain about mysteriously losing radio communications?

To me stealing offensive signals would be much more useful as they would be much more simple to understand and the odds that a team would change its offensive signals throughout the season would be slim to none.

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]]> By: mikemboston http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27355 mikemboston Sat, 10 May 2008 16:44:00 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27355 "So maybe that’s why some reporters aren’t letting concepts like you know, reality and common sense get in the way on this one." Maybe? try 100% fact. These losers are trying to both sell papers and find a story where there is none. The rest is just jealousy and envy piling on. I love Dungy questioning the "integrity of the game" in regards to spygate when last year he took out all of his starters in the 1st quarter against Tenn essentially knocking the Browns out of the playoffs, yea that's the epitome of integrity isn't it Tony. “So maybe that’s why some reporters aren’t letting concepts like you know, reality and common sense get in the way on this one.”

Maybe? try 100% fact. These losers are trying to both sell papers and find a story where there is none. The rest is just jealousy and envy piling on. I love Dungy questioning the “integrity of the game” in regards to spygate when last year he took out all of his starters in the 1st quarter against Tenn essentially knocking the Browns out of the playoffs, yea that’s the epitome of integrity isn’t it Tony.

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]]> By: Ca_Viking http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27354 Ca_Viking Sat, 10 May 2008 16:42:18 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27354 The reason this is gathering steam is the issue of LYING. They continued to treat this problem as an attack on their organization. Saying that everybody steal signals is a modern-day copout. This was an institutional problem. The Patriots made this problem an everyday policy knowing it was wrong AND even after being warned. What's to say they are not still taping and liying about it. The reason this is gathering steam is the issue of LYING.

They continued to treat this problem as an attack on their organization.

Saying that everybody steal signals is a modern-day copout.

This was an institutional problem. The Patriots made this problem an everyday policy knowing it was wrong AND even after being warned.

What’s to say they are not still taping and liying about it.

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]]> By: Jazzaman12 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27352 Jazzaman12 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:34:43 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27352 Videotaping offensive and defensive signals are the same offense: Use of videotaping equipment on the sidelines. I think people forget that that is the offense. Stealing signals is not. Stealing signals in other varieties of forms is probably common practice. The Pats used an illegal form and got punished. I don't see how this is a different offense. Videotaping offensive and defensive signals are the same offense: Use of videotaping equipment on the sidelines. I think people forget that that is the offense. Stealing signals is not. Stealing signals in other varieties of forms is probably common practice. The Pats used an illegal form and got punished. I don’t see how this is a different offense.

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]]> By: Rob0769 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27353 Rob0769 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:34:43 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27353 Besides, in Glauber's piece, the League stated on Friday that the punishment received last year covered offensive signals along with defensive signals. So. Glauber raises the theory that this is beyond the scope of the original punishment and then shoots down his own theory. Sensational journalism for the sake of sensation. Besides, in Glauber’s piece, the League stated on Friday that the punishment received last year covered offensive signals along with defensive signals. So. Glauber raises the theory that this is beyond the scope of the original punishment and then shoots down his own theory. Sensational journalism for the sake of sensation.

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]]> By: Rob0769 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27351 Rob0769 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:32:00 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27351 It just goes to show that the media is not interested in getting to the truth in this story, they are only interested in getting to the scandal. This further exposes the sorry state of journalism today. The media only wants to show the truth when it sizzles. Otherwise, they want to manufacture scandals. It isn't unique to Spygate or sports media, but this is an extreme case of what is wrong with the media today. The fact of the matter is that the Pats were punished for filming opposing teams sidelines. Whether it was offensive or defensive signals is splitting hairs is a desperate attempt to keep the controversy that is obviously ending on Tuesday. Besides, there was a loophole in the rule that was closed in 2006 that made it legal to film signals anyway as long as you didn't use it in games. It just goes to show that the media is not interested in getting to the truth in this story, they are only interested in getting to the scandal. This further exposes the sorry state of journalism today. The media only wants to show the truth when it sizzles. Otherwise, they want to manufacture scandals. It isn’t unique to Spygate or sports media, but this is an extreme case of what is wrong with the media today.

The fact of the matter is that the Pats were punished for filming opposing teams sidelines. Whether it was offensive or defensive signals is splitting hairs is a desperate attempt to keep the controversy that is obviously ending on Tuesday. Besides, there was a loophole in the rule that was closed in 2006 that made it legal to film signals anyway as long as you didn’t use it in games.

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]]> By: Pastabelly http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27350 Pastabelly Sat, 10 May 2008 16:31:44 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27350 The league didn't emphasize the rule into 2006. All of the other crap was from before then. Belichick is hated by the media and that is the source of the latest piling on, especially from Glauber. The league didn’t emphasize the rule into 2006. All of the other crap was from before then. Belichick is hated by the media and that is the source of the latest piling on, especially from Glauber.

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]]> By: ringsoft http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27349 ringsoft Sat, 10 May 2008 16:30:36 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27349 While you're right about offensive coaching systems and the radio helmet, maybe there is another angle to this - have you never seen a QB making signals to his WRs to communicate some sort of audible, option route or blitz pickup? Prior knowldege of these signals might be a big help to defensive players. Just a thought. While you’re right about offensive coaching systems and the radio helmet, maybe there is another angle to this - have you never seen a QB making signals to his WRs to communicate some sort of audible, option route or blitz pickup? Prior knowldege of these signals might be a big help to defensive players.

Just a thought.

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]]> By: mkuske http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27348 mkuske Sat, 10 May 2008 16:29:35 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27348 It would be interesting to see if there is a higher rate of headset outages at Gillette than at other stadiums. If there is not, then you're right...there's not much of a story here. If there is, then this may be an indication of a deeper level of systematic cheating. It would be interesting to see if there is a higher rate of headset outages at Gillette than at other stadiums. If there is not, then you’re right…there’s not much of a story here. If there is, then this may be an indication of a deeper level of systematic cheating.

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]]> By: TBR05 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27345 TBR05 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:25:56 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27345 If a team was using offensive signals, even though that method is obsolete, and the Patriots taped these signals, then it constitutes a breaking of the rules. It doesn't matter if the Dolphins are ar-tards for using the signals. The Patriots broke another set of rules, and deserve punishment. If a team was using offensive signals, even though that method is obsolete, and the Patriots taped these signals, then it constitutes a breaking of the rules. It doesn’t matter if the Dolphins are ar-tards for using the signals. The Patriots broke another set of rules, and deserve punishment.

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]]> By: blackglass3 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27343 blackglass3 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:20:20 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27343 Jeez, man. You're letting the facts (that QB's have the headsets) get in the way of the media's demonizing of the Patriots. Jeez, man. You’re letting the facts (that QB’s have the headsets) get in the way of the media’s demonizing of the Patriots.

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]]> By: PFTiswhatitis http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27340 PFTiswhatitis Sat, 10 May 2008 16:15:24 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27340 Florio! The Pats were punished for videotaping fromt he sidelines NOT for videotaping defensive signals nor for taping offensive signals so NO it is not beyond the scope of what they were punished for nor has there been anything to suggest that they violated any additional rules. C'mon man this is basic. Florio! The Pats were punished for videotaping fromt he sidelines NOT for videotaping defensive signals nor for taping offensive signals so NO it is not beyond the scope of what they were punished for nor has there been anything to suggest that they violated any additional rules. C’mon man this is basic.

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]]> By: Simdogga77 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27339 Simdogga77 Sat, 10 May 2008 16:15:20 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27339 Part of the NFL’s Sept. 13 release said the Pats were being disciplined for....... “violating the rule about taping offensive and defensive signals.” Again, already been ruled and disciplined on. Part of the NFL’s Sept. 13 release said the Pats were being disciplined for……. “violating the rule about taping offensive and defensive signals.”

Again, already been ruled and disciplined on.

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]]> By: blome http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27338 blome Sat, 10 May 2008 16:14:54 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27338 If the Patriots would have "technical difficulties" with the radio equipment at their stadium,then both teams would be required to remove the radio equipment and use hand signals. If the Patriots would have “technical difficulties” with the radio equipment at their stadium,then both teams would be required to remove the radio equipment and use hand signals.

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]]> By: Jeremiah W http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27337 Jeremiah W Sat, 10 May 2008 16:14:08 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27337 I keep hearing about what was not on Walsh tapes, but what exactly was on them? What about the whole espionage effort NE was conducting would make anyone think they were just taping D coordinators for use in future matchups? They were trying to steal everything and anything they could to win. That most definitly included offensive audible calls. How else could they have shut down Peyton and the boys so easily with sub par Cbs and defense. They also played as far over the percieved talent as the offense. I think it is safe to just assume the worst and move on. They admit cheating all the way back to 2000. How much cheating, how much it helped them, what is on what tape or he said she said at this point is irrelavant in my view. The fact that a Senator is questioning how the NFL handled the thing is not a problem to me. I don't think destroying the evidence was a very smart thing to do if you really want to make the story go away. That more than anything made me assume what ever there was was so damaging they were willing to take the suspicion and bad PR rather than admit the truth. I keep hearing about what was not on Walsh tapes, but what exactly was on them?

What about the whole espionage effort NE was conducting would make anyone think they were just taping D coordinators for use in future matchups? They were trying to steal everything and anything they could to win. That most definitly included offensive audible calls.

How else could they have shut down Peyton and the boys so easily with sub par Cbs and defense. They also played as far over the percieved talent as the offense.

I think it is safe to just assume the worst and move on. They admit cheating all the way back to 2000. How much cheating, how much it helped them, what is on what tape or he said she said at this point is irrelavant in my view.

The fact that a Senator is questioning how the NFL handled the thing is not a problem to me. I don’t think destroying the evidence was a very smart thing to do if you really want to make the story go away. That more than anything made me assume what ever there was was so damaging they were willing to take the suspicion and bad PR rather than admit the truth.

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]]> By: MC http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27336 MC Sat, 10 May 2008 16:13:07 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27336 Headset problems during the game could be the reason why the Fins used offensive signals. And if there's a tape of such a thing, then its possible that the Pats had something to do with the headset problems and knew in advance that the Fins were going to be using offensive signals for the game.... ... or it could just be a mislabeled tape... Either way, I just wish this would be over with! Headset problems during the game could be the reason why the Fins used offensive signals.

And if there’s a tape of such a thing, then its possible that the Pats had something to do with the headset problems and knew in advance that the Fins were going to be using offensive signals for the game….

… or it could just be a mislabeled tape…

Either way, I just wish this would be over with!

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]]> By: SRP http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27335 SRP Sat, 10 May 2008 16:11:37 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27335 The one thing you seem to be forgetting are the reports of the visiting teams "unreliable" radio receivers at Foxboro. The one thing you seem to be forgetting are the reports of the visiting teams “unreliable” radio receivers at Foxboro.

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]]> By: blome http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27334 blome Sat, 10 May 2008 16:10:03 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27334 The only way it would be useful is for the Patriots to have "technical difficulties" with the radio equipment at Gillette Stadium.Then both teams would have to put away the radio equipment and use hand signals. The only way it would be useful is for the Patriots to have “technical difficulties” with the radio equipment at Gillette Stadium.Then both teams would have to put away the radio equipment and use hand signals.

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]]> By: Vox Veritas http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27327 Vox Veritas Sat, 10 May 2008 15:58:47 +0000 http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/05/10/the-offensive-signals-issue-gathers-steam/#comment-27327 Yeah some NFL bloggers are guilty of that, too. Not to mention any names, of course. Yeah some NFL bloggers are guilty of that, too. Not to mention any names, of course.

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